The ILS 16R (http://tinyurl.com/353gd5) at Reno (KRNO) has the
notation:

"8500 to GS intercept 181 (2) and LOC (8.8)"

I don't understand this. It appears this means that GS intercept will
occur in 2 miles on a 181 heading and that LOC intercept will occur in
8.8 miles. Neither appears to be true from the plan view. In fact, it
looks more like LOC intercept will occur in 2 miles and GS intercept
in 8.8 (at 8500 feet).

Any insights?

> "8500 to GS intercept 181 (2) and LOC (8.8)"
>
> I don't understand this. It appears this means that GS intercept will
> occur in 2 miles on a 181 heading and that LOC intercept will occur in
> 8.8 miles. Neither appears to be true from the plan view. In fact, it
> looks more like LOC intercept will occur in 2 miles and GS intercept
> in 8.8 (at 8500 feet).
>
> Any insights?

No idea, but I would like to know how on an ILS approach without GPS one
would identify PYRAM.

Kobra

Kobra wrote:
>> "8500 to GS intercept 181 (2) and LOC (8.8)"
>>
>> I don't understand this. It appears this means that GS intercept will
>> occur in 2 miles on a 181 heading and that LOC intercept will occur in
>> 8.8 miles. Neither appears to be true from the plan view. In fact, it
>> looks more like LOC intercept will occur in 2 miles and GS intercept
>> in 8.8 (at 8500 feet).
>>
>> Any insights?
>
> No idea, but I would like to know how on an ILS approach without GPS one
> would identify PYRAM.

If airnav.com is to be believed, it's at the intersection of the 286
radial from HZN, and the 332 radial from FMG, at 22.19 DME, and is
charted on enroute-high and enroute-low as well as the IAP.

Dave

On Dec 13, 11:34 am, nick name > wrote:
> The ILS 16R (http://tinyurl.com/353gd5) at Reno (KRNO) has the
> notation:
>
> "8500 to GS intercept 181 (2) and LOC (8.8)"
>
> I don't understand this. It appears this means that GS intercept will
> occur in 2 miles on a 181 heading and that LOC intercept will occur in
> 8.8 miles. Neither appears to be true from the plan view. In fact, it
> looks more like LOC intercept will occur in 2 miles and GS intercept
> in 8.8 (at 8500 feet).
>
> Any insights?

You fly to PYRAM (which can be identified by FMG 332 radial and HZN
286 radial). From there you continue at 8500 for 2 miles (IRNO DME)
at 181 deg. Then (after 2 miles) you turn to 164 deg, i.e. intercept
the localizer. From the point you change your heading, it's 8.8 miles
(INRO DME) from PYRAM to GS intercept.
Gerd

"Kobra" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> No idea, but I would like to know how on an ILS approach without GPS one
> would identify PYRAM.
>

PYRAM is a DME fix on V165.

Three miles north of PYRAM there's another fix, LIBGE, which can be
determined by DME, or a radial intersection from Hazen VOR, or the
intersection with the Reno RWY 16R LOC.

If you were inbound to Reno from the north on V165 you could your determine
your position at LIBGE as you flew through the localizer, continue for
another three miles on V165 and determine your position at the IAF PYRAM by
use of DME or GPS, at which point you'd turn to a heading of 181 to
intercept the localizer.

"Dave Butler" > wrote in message
...
>
> If airnav.com is to be believed, it's at the intersection of the 286
> radial from HZN, and the 332 radial from FMG, at 22.19 DME, and is charted
> on enroute-high and enroute-low as well as the IAP.
>

The low altitude enroute chart shows the intersection of the HZN 286R and
FMG 332R to be LIBGE, three miles north of PYRAM.

"gwengler" > wrote in message
...
>
> You fly to PYRAM (which can be identified by FMG 332 radial and HZN
> 286 radial).
>

What chart are you looking at? Low altitude enroute chart L-9 shows the
intersection of the FMG 332R and HZN 286R to be LIBGE, three miles north of
PYRAM.

nick name > wrote in news:db1ffcb5-bf85-4924-acdd-
:

> The ILS 16R (http://tinyurl.com/353gd5) at Reno (KRNO) has the
> notation:
>
> "8500 to GS intercept 181 (2) and LOC (8.8)"
>
> I don't understand this. It appears this means that GS intercept will
> occur in 2 miles on a 181 heading and that LOC intercept will occur in
> 8.8 miles. Neither appears to be true from the plan view. In fact, it
> looks more like LOC intercept will occur in 2 miles and GS intercept
> in 8.8 (at 8500 feet).
>
> Any insights?

I understand it as 8500 to glideslope intercept (which will occur after 2
miles of flying 181 degrees at which point you will intercept the
localizer. Then fly 8.8 miles on that until gs intercept)

On Dec 13, 10:34 am, nick name > wrote:
> The ILS 16R (http://tinyurl.com/353gd5) at Reno (KRNO) has the
> notation:
>
> "8500 to GS intercept 181 (2) and LOC (8.8)"
>
> I don't understand this. It appears this means that GS intercept will
> occur in 2 miles on a 181 heading and that LOC intercept will occur in
> 8.8 miles. Neither appears to be true from the plan view. In fact, it
> looks more like LOC intercept will occur in 2 miles and GS intercept
> in 8.8 (at 8500 feet).
>
> Any insights?
>

It means maintain 8500 MSL until intercepting the glideslope. You're
a total of 10.8 miles from GS intercept at PYRAM, 2 miles on a 181
heading and 8.8 miles on the LOC.

On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 12:44:37 -0500, "Kobra" > wrote:

>No idea, but I would like to know how on an ILS approach without GPS one
>would identify PYRAM.

You use your low altitude chart.

PYRAM is defined by the 286.0° radial from HZN (Hazen VOR) at 41.7 NM. It
is on V165 a few miles south of LIBGE

Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

On Dec 14, 7:24 am, Ron Rosenfeld > wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 12:44:37 -0500, "Kobra" > wrote:
> >No idea, but I would like to know how on an ILS approach without GPS one
> >would identify PYRAM.
>
> You use your low altitude chart.
>
> PYRAM is defined by the 286.0° radial from HZN (Hazen VOR) at 41.7 NM. It
> is on V165 a few miles south of LIBGE
>

Are you looking at a Jeppesen chart?

NACO low altitude enroute chart L-9 shows LIBGE to be where the HZN
286R crosses V165. NACO high altitude enroute chart H-3 shows PYRAM
to be where the HZN 286R crosses J5. V165 and J5 are defined by the
FMG 332R.

On Dec 13, 5:44 pm, "Steven P. McNicoll" >
wrote:
> "gwengler" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
> > You fly to PYRAM (which can be identified by FMG 332 radial and HZN
> > 286 radial).
>
> What chart are you looking at? Low altitude enroute chart L-9 shows the
> intersection of the FMG 332R and HZN 286R to be LIBGE, three miles north of
> PYRAM.

I took this information from the Jeppesen approach plate KRNO ILS16R
11-1 24-Aug-07. PYRAM is clearly identified as I said above. It's
22.2D from FMG.
Gerd

On Dec 13, 5:41 pm, "Steven P. McNicoll" >
wrote:
> "Dave Butler" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
> > If airnav.com is to be believed, it's at the intersection of the 286
> > radial from HZN, and the 332 radial from FMG, at 22.19 DME, and is charted
> > on enroute-high and enroute-low as well as the IAP.
>
> The low altitude enroute chart shows the intersection of the HZN 286R and
> FMG 332R to be LIBGE, three miles north of PYRAM.

Isn't that interesting. Both on the Jepp approach plate as well as on
the Jepp low enrout chart PYRAM shows as FMZ 332R and HZN 286R. LIBGE
is FMZ 332R and on the INRO 164 LOC. By measuring the radial from HZN
to PYRAM, I get 303 deg T from FliteStar which is actually 286 deg M
(HZN Station Declination: 17.0 deg E), so that seems to be correct.
Gerd

On Dec 14, 9:11 am, "Steven P. McNicoll" >
wrote:
> On Dec 14, 7:24 am, Ron Rosenfeld > wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 12:44:37 -0500, "Kobra" > wrote:
> > >No idea, but I would like to know how on an ILS approach without GPS one
> > >would identify PYRAM.
>
> > You use your low altitude chart.
>
> > PYRAM is defined by the 286.0° radial from HZN (Hazen VOR) at 41.7 NM. It
> > is on V165 a few miles south of LIBGE
>
> Are you looking at a Jeppesen chart?
>
> NACO low altitude enroute chart L-9 shows LIBGE to be where the HZN
> 286R crosses V165. NACO high altitude enroute chart H-3 shows PYRAM
> to be where the HZN 286R crosses J5. V165 and J5 are defined by the
> FMG 332R.

Isn't that interesting. On both Jepp approach plate and low enrout
chart, PYRAM is identified as HZN 286R and FMG 332R. I measured it
with FliteStar and it's indeed 303T from HZN, which is correct
(Station Declination: 17.0°E). LIGBE is defined as by the IRNO /
RW16R Localizer at KRNO at 27.4 NM by Jeppesen, but it's also FMG
332R.
Gerd

On Dec 14, 9:11 am, "Steven P. McNicoll" >
wrote:
> On Dec 14, 7:24 am, Ron Rosenfeld > wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 12:44:37 -0500, "Kobra" > wrote:
> > >No idea, but I would like to know how on an ILS approach without GPS one
> > >would identify PYRAM.
>
> > You use your low altitude chart.
>
> > PYRAM is defined by the 286.0° radial from HZN (Hazen VOR) at 41.7 NM. It
> > is on V165 a few miles south of LIBGE
>
> Are you looking at a Jeppesen chart?
>
> NACO low altitude enroute chart L-9 shows LIBGE to be where the HZN
> 286R crosses V165. NACO high altitude enroute chart H-3 shows PYRAM
> to be where the HZN 286R crosses J5. V165 and J5 are defined by the
> FMG 332R.

Isn't that interesting. On both Jepp approach plate and low enrout
chart, PYRAM is identified as HZN 286R and FMG 332R. I measured it
with FliteStar and it's indeed 303T from HZN, which is correct
(Station Declination: 17.0°E). LIGBE is defined as by the IRNO /
RW16R Localizer at KRNO at 27.4 NM by Jeppesen, but it's also FMG
332R.
Gerd

nick name wrote:
> The ILS 16R (http://tinyurl.com/353gd5) at Reno (KRNO) has the
> notation:
>
> "8500 to GS intercept 181 (2) and LOC (8.8)"
>
> I don't understand this. It appears this means that GS intercept will
> occur in 2 miles on a 181 heading and that LOC intercept will occur in
> 8.8 miles. Neither appears to be true from the plan view. In fact, it
> looks more like LOC intercept will occur in 2 miles and GS intercept
> in 8.8 (at 8500 feet).
>
> Any insights?

The Jeppesen chart makes it much clearer

http://tinyurl.com/24kxmt

"gwengler" > wrote in message
...
>
> Isn't that interesting. On both Jepp approach plate and low enrout
> chart, PYRAM is identified as HZN 286R and FMG 332R. I measured it
> with FliteStar and it's indeed 303T from HZN, which is correct
> (Station Declination: 17.0°E). LIGBE is defined as by the IRNO /
> RW16R Localizer at KRNO at 27.4 NM by Jeppesen, but it's also FMG
> 332R.
>

JO 7350.7B Location Identifiers shows PYRAM to be the intersection of the
HZN 286 and FMG 332 radials as well as the FMG 332R 22 DME fix. The low
altitude enroute chart is in error, I've sent a message to NACO about it.

On Fri, 14 Dec 2007 06:11:45 -0800 (PST), "Steven P. McNicoll"
> wrote:

>On Dec 14, 7:24 am, Ron Rosenfeld > wrote:
>> On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 12:44:37 -0500, "Kobra" > wrote:
>> >No idea, but I would like to know how on an ILS approach without GPS one
>> >would identify PYRAM.
>>
>> You use your low altitude chart.
>>
>> PYRAM is defined by the 286.0° radial from HZN (Hazen VOR) at 41.7 NM. It
>> is on V165 a few miles south of LIBGE
>>
>
>Are you looking at a Jeppesen chart?
>
>NACO low altitude enroute chart L-9 shows LIBGE to be where the HZN
>286R crosses V165. NACO high altitude enroute chart H-3 shows PYRAM
>to be where the HZN 286R crosses J5. V165 and J5 are defined by the
>FMG 332R.
>

Actually I copied the "properties" of the Pyram intersection from
FliteStar, which is based on Jepp data.

I don't have a Jepp chart for the approach, though.

FliteStar does not actually chart the HZN 286°R.

LIBGE "measures" to be about 2.7NM NW of PYRAM on V165.


Looking at the data from FliteStar, it is interesting that the magnetic
variation at PYRAM (and LIGBE) is 15.8°E; but at HZN, the Station
Declination is 17.0°E with an Actual MagVar of 14.3°E.

OK, I have an electronic copy of L9 and H3 I see what you mean about it
showing the HZN 286°R pointing to LIBGE on the LO and to PYRAM on the HI
charts.
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

"Ron Rosenfeld" > wrote in message
...
>
> OK, I have an electronic copy of L9 and H3 I see what you mean about it
> showing the HZN 286°R pointing to LIBGE on the LO and to PYRAM on the HI
> charts.
>

For others interested, charts can be viewed online at http://skyvector.com/
.. Enter the fix and you can switch between high, low and sectional charts.

Dave Butler wrote:

> If airnav.com is to be believed, it's at the intersection of the 286
> radial from HZN, and the 332 radial from FMG, at 22.19 DME, and is
> charted on enroute-high and enroute-low as well as the IAP.
>
> Dave

It's even on the SECTIONAL.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "gwengler" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Isn't that interesting. On both Jepp approach plate and low enrout
>> chart, PYRAM is identified as HZN 286R and FMG 332R. I measured it
>> with FliteStar and it's indeed 303T from HZN, which is correct
>> (Station Declination: 17.0°E). LIGBE is defined as by the IRNO /
>> RW16R Localizer at KRNO at 27.4 NM by Jeppesen, but it's also FMG
>> 332R.
>>
>
> JO 7350.7B Location Identifiers shows PYRAM to be the intersection of the
> HZN 286 and FMG 332 radials as well as the FMG 332R 22 DME fix. The low
> altitude enroute chart is in error, I've sent a message to NACO about it.
>
>
>
That's odd. I've only got paper Jepps, but the online NACO chart at
aeroplanner shows PYRAM with the 286degree arrow pointing at it.

On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 07:46:11 -0500, Ron Natalie > wrote:

>That's odd. I've only got paper Jepps, but the online NACO chart at
>aeroplanner shows PYRAM with the 286degree arrow pointing at it.

The NACO L-9 chart dtd 25 OCT 2007 shows that arrow clearly pointing to
LIBGE.

Maybe aeroplanner corrected it? Or are melding the Hi and Lo charts?
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
m...
>
> That's odd. I've only got paper Jepps, but the online NACO chart at
> aeroplanner shows PYRAM with the 286degree arrow pointing at it.
>

The online L-9 at SkyVector, which is a digital image of the paper NACO L-9,
shows LIBGE with the HZN 286R arrow pointing to it.

On Dec 19, 8:19 am, Ron Rosenfeld > wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 07:46:11 -0500, Ron Natalie > wrote:
> >
> >That's odd. I've only got paper Jepps, but the online NACO chart at
> >aeroplanner shows PYRAM with the 286degree arrow pointing at it.
> >
>
> The NACO L-9 chart dtd 25 OCT 2007 shows that arrow clearly pointing to
> LIBGE.
>
> Maybe aeroplanner corrected it? Or are melding the Hi and Lo charts?
>

Here's the response I received from NACO:

"Thanks for your comments. You were absolutely correct that the HZN
286R should point to PYRAM , not LIBGE. The radial line got misplaced
during the recompilation process when we were automating the new 36
charts for the 10/25/07 cycle. Unfortunately, since the 12/20/07
charts have been printed, it will be corrected on the 2/14/08 chart.
Thanks again."

On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 03:44:20 -0800 (PST), "Steven P. McNicoll"
> wrote:

>On Dec 19, 8:19 am, Ron Rosenfeld > wrote:
>> On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 07:46:11 -0500, Ron Natalie > wrote:
>> >
>> >That's odd. I've only got paper Jepps, but the online NACO chart at
>> >aeroplanner shows PYRAM with the 286degree arrow pointing at it.
>> >
>>
>> The NACO L-9 chart dtd 25 OCT 2007 shows that arrow clearly pointing to
>> LIBGE.
>>
>> Maybe aeroplanner corrected it? Or are melding the Hi and Lo charts?
>>
>
>Here's the response I received from NACO:
>
>"Thanks for your comments. You were absolutely correct that the HZN
>286R should point to PYRAM , not LIBGE. The radial line got misplaced
>during the recompilation process when we were automating the new 36
>charts for the 10/25/07 cycle. Unfortunately, since the 12/20/07
>charts have been printed, it will be corrected on the 2/14/08 chart.
>Thanks again."

Thank you for getting that corrected.
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)